What's the real difference - KTM XC-W 250/350/450/500

LoopSoosStroop

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I've been looking at the specs online.

Except if they made mistakes online the following specs are the same for all of these:

Suspension travel Front 300 mm
Suspension travel Rear 335 mm
Brake discs - diameter Front 260 mm
Brake discs - diameter Rear 220 mm
Steering head angle 63.5°
Wheelbase 1,482±10 mm
Ground clearance, unloaded 345 mm
Seat height, unloaded 970 mm

The only other difference besides the engine capacity is weight without fuel;

250: 107 kg
350: 107 kg
450: 111 kg
500: 111.5 kg

So if you take a 450 or 500 instead of a 250/350 you only have to lug 4 more kg's around, which may or may not make a difference in Roof style riding.

For me personally, it then makes absolutely no sense taking a 250 over a 350, and a 450 over a 500?

And if you are not on a 2-stroke, where the real weight savings are anyway, you might as well get a 500 and be done with it?

Makes me think this is all a big marketing ploy to sell more bikes, having all these models which are so similar anyway?

Thoughts?
 

DangerDave

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it's all in the riding, ya the weight is slightly different, but a 450 will pull away from you on up hills and you have to work harder to keep yourself forward on the bike and it will tire you out quicker. Also the rotating mass is very different and rotating mass makes a bike feel a lot heavier.
bottom line is to ride the bike that suits your size and skill, bearing in mind half of us couldn't use a 250f to its full potential and would be seriously wasting time with anything bigger...
 

Mark800XC

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Will make more difference depending on where you ride.

Like in the rocks when you have to hold onto the bike / pick it up a few times a day. Go and ride all of em and see for yourself.
 

LoopSoosStroop

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DangerDave said:
it's all in the riding, ya the weight is slightly different, but a 450 will pull away from you on up hills and you have to work harder to keep yourself forward on the bike and it will tire you out quicker.
I agree, because it is faster. But if you are riding at the same pace as on a 250 technically there should not me a difference in exertion? If you are going faster you will get tired quicker.
 

LoopSoosStroop

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Mark250GP said:
Will make more difference depending on where you ride.

Like in the rocks when you have to hold onto the bike / pick it up a few times a day.
And I suppose your build will make a difference as well. 4 kg's is more for me at 74 kg than for a oke weighing 100 kg's. For him picking up that difference 30 times a day is going to be way less effort than for me.

But what I guess I'm trying to say is that the differences between the bikes are far smaller than sometimes believed and that it is mainly due to perception.

If you get on a 250 you are going to believe it is light and agile, and thus ride it better in the tight stuff. If you get on a 500 immediately you will tell yourself that it's going to be heavy and hard to handle.
 

Toors

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as an example - although the weight between the 250 and the 350 is the same the 250 will feel lighter due to rotational mass of the engine etc. So might be easier to ride in the real tech stuff but the 350 has more power is plenty fast and like to be ride harder so might be more fun.

the 450 (being the main bigbore bike used in off-road competitions (yes I know Mahoney is riding a 500) is highly strung and may be more tiri9ng to ride than a 500 (this is because of ECU set-up and other mechanical differences).

It really depends what you want to do with the bike (if you want to ride tech all day - and have to have a 4t (there is a lot of good arguments in favour of a 2T to be had) a 250 might be better than a 350 (me I still like the 350) if you want to race, the 450 might be better than the 500, exactly because it is higher strung and at the edge) if you want to be able to have a lazy ride but also go like crazy when you want, to then the 500 is a good choice. If you want one to use in Rally raid stuff the 500 is the one to go for.

Best advice is to test ride - you can take my 350 for a spin.

but give me a ring and we can have a more detailed chat
 

LoopSoosStroop

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A great comparison will be to send riders off on a course with a couple of unmarked (disguised) bikes and compare their times on the different bikes.
 

Toors

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LoopSoosStroop said:
Mark250GP said:
Will make more difference depending on where you ride.

Like in the rocks when you have to hold onto the bike / pick it up a few times a day.
And I suppose your build will make a difference as well. 4 kg's is more for me at 74 kg than for a oke weighing 100 kg's. For him picking up that difference 30 times a day is going to be way less effort than for me.

But what I guess I'm trying to say is that the differences between the bikes are far smaller than sometimes believed and that it is mainly due to perception.

If you get on a 250 you are going to believe it is light and agile, and thus ride it better in the tight stuff. If you get on a 500 immediately you will tell yourself that it's going to be heavy and hard to handle.

In the actual "personality" of these bikes there is a massive difference between them - even though the spec sheet says not
 

bulletproof

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Dont forget the positioning of the weight in the bike.
The 4t top end causes the c.o.g. to be higher which means you use more effort to pick it up.
 

Mark800XC

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LoopSoosStroop said:
A great comparison will be to send riders off on a course with a couple of unmarked (disguised) bikes and compare their times on the different bikes.
They done that a while ago in one of the US mags.

90% of the testers preferred the 300, 90% of them were fastest on the 200, same track, same day.
 

red_eye_righley

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Mark250GP said:
LoopSoosStroop said:
A great comparison will be to send riders off on a course with a couple of unmarked (disguised) bikes and compare their times on the different bikes.
They done that a while ago in one of the US mags.

90% of the testers preferred the 300, 90% of them were fastest on the 200, same track, same day.
SHHHHHHHHH....everyone is going to go buy 200's now....
 

bulletproof

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LoopSoosStroop said:
A great comparison will be to send riders off on a course with a couple of unmarked (disguised) bikes and compare their times on the different bikes.
Only way that is going to work is by having blind and deaf riders :lol:
 

LoopSoosStroop

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Don't worry chaps, not buying, just an interesting discussion, and I'm sure that there is much less in it than we perceive.

Rotational inertia (please correct me if I'm wrong) is a function of mass and angular velocity squared. In other words the mass that rotates (flywheel, con-rod, piston, crank) has far less effect than the engine speed. Hence Bigmike having better experiences with higher gears on downhills on his 450. (3rd or 4th will reduce engine speed to below normal idle). (Off topic: what about just killing it and freewheeling down?). So if the revs on a bigger engine is lower for the same speed handling should be very similar.
 

Mark800XC

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There wont be much difference between a 450 and 500 and likewise between a 250 and 300 but there is a difference in the bangers vs the smokers. Whether or not we will notice the difference on a quick ride is debatable but its like the cyclists saving a few grams here and there, over a period of time or distance rather it makes a big difference even if you don't notice it immediately.
 

LoopSoosStroop

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bulletproof said:
Dont forget the positioning of the weight in the bike.
The 4t top end causes the c.o.g. to be higher which means you use more effort to pick it up.
500 stroke and bore: 72 and 98 mm
250 stroke and bore: 55 and 78 mm

Engine is not that much taller or wider, but still where the most of the 4kgs difference sit. Still relatively low down, not like it's on the bars or seat or airbox. Losing 4 kg's off the rider will make more difference than than.
 

Toors

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LoopSoosStroop said:
Don't worry chaps, not buying, just an interesting discussion, and I'm sure that there is much less in it than we perceive.

quote]

Why not :roll: , you should be buying a KTM :D
 

LoopSoosStroop

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Toors said:
Why not :roll: , you should be buying a KTM :D
Eventually, but due to the current family expansion program (wife 9 weeks pregnant) that is still many years off.

For now the TTR will have to do.
 

Toors

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LoopSoosStroop said:
Toors said:
Why not :roll: , you should be buying a KTM :D
Eventually, but due to the current family expansion program (wife 9 weeks pregnant) that is still many years off.

For now the TTR will have to do.

Congratulations.... but always keep riding ;)
 

Bertie

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Toors said:
as an example - although the weight between the 250 and the 350 is the same the 250 will feel lighter due to rotational mass of the engine etc. So might be easier to ride in the real tech stuff but the 350 has more power is plenty fast and like to be ride harder so might be more fun.
Toors, have you ridden the 250f? Is it strong low down, or does it need to be revved out to get power? I like the idea of the 250f, but am worried that it will not be good in tech stuff like pivot turns and rocks etc
 

Toors

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Bertie said:
Toors said:
as an example - although the weight between the 250 and the 350 is the same the 250 will feel lighter due to rotational mass of the engine etc. So might be easier to ride in the real tech stuff but the 350 has more power is plenty fast and like to be ride harder so might be more fun.
Toors, have you ridden the 250f? Is it strong low down, or does it need to be revved out to get power? I like the idea of the 250f, but am worried that it will not be good in tech stuff like pivot turns and rocks etc

Nobody wants to lend me a new model 250 to test ride :eek: . maybe its because I weight north of 130kg ;) but most likely because of my weight the 250 might not have quite enough for me...
 
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